It is probably just as well that Owen shut down the comments... Arturo's stalker showed up which meant a future of nothing but non sequiturs and Dr. Dre references. But Owen made a final comment to me that I feel compelled to address. I reproduce his remarks below:
Sean,
"which is really a function of demographics, not theology"
- very well then, this phrase perfectly captures the ethos of big box praxis.
Eastern Rites do sometimes tend to join the bandwagon suggesting that the EOC is to small to be The Church, etc. One can be so small and be part of the Church, but not The Church, etc., following that general condescending attitude of RCs that Orthodox claims to be the One Church of Christ are quaint. A barking poodle, to use one (canonically) Eastern Catholic’s choice of terms.
"The Errors of the Latins and their Floor Waxes"
Here is the suggestion that the polemical target of this post, Mcwafers, is as arbitrary a target as what one finds in RC mop buckets. In suggesting as much, you unwittingly suggest that the origin and type of what is in the Cup (for Orthodox, in the hand or tongue for RCs) is not substantially more important that the origin and type of what is the mop bucket. This is exactly the inclination that a Mcwafer ecclesiological culture breeds. For if in that very thing that is most important to us we use something that is cheaply and inhumanly made (when we have and could use something else – and seeing the extraordinary works that Catholics routinely do on all number of fronts I refuse to believe that they could not handle making their own wafers on a parish level, though perhaps some difficulty in the effort might help sway what many conservative Catholics believe is an overly frequent Communion practice in AmChurch), is from an arbitrary or exchangeable source, as it were, is in its packaged form a product easily disposed of (which no one will miss because no one made it, certainly not the person who might throw it away on the parish level if its gets past the expiration date), and has been marketed by those who bask in their increased market share and market dominance, then, my friend, we have essentially affirmed that the whole cosmos is a mop bucket.
"very well then, this phrase perfectly captures the ethos of big box praxis."
I'm not sure what he means by this. I was simply suggesting that the fact that there are lots and lots and lots of Catholics in many of places and that it is often necessary to build bigger houses of worship to accommodate them all.
"...that general condescending attitude of RCs..."
This is truly rich. Catholics have, in general, a condescending attitude, says the man for whom, it sometimes seems, the Catholic Church can do no right, this bread obsession being only the latest example. Well, when you hate someone, the way they use their fork infuriates you. When you like someone, the way they lick their plate is charming.
"In suggesting as much, you unwittingly suggest that the origin and type of what is in the Cup (for Orthodox, in the hand or tongue for RCs) is not substantially more important that the origin and type of what is the mop bucket."
First of all, I don't believe it is possible to "unwittingly suggest" anything. Attempting to indicate a natural connection of ideas without plain expression would require far more wit than I posses and, were I even to attempt such a feat, I doubt I could do it unconsciously. I will leave aside the horrific insinuation that I actually believe that what is in the Cup is not more important than what is in the mop bucket, but I do dispute the notion that the way in which Catholic communion wafers are made somehow diminishes them.
Wheat does not plant itself or harvest itself, folks, even if it is no longer done by an army of serfs equiped with scythes but instead by a single farmer on a big John Deer rig (also made by humans). Somebody laid the tracks the carried the train to the grain elevator. Another fellow came up with the idea for whatever automation is at work in the bakery. No babies were sacrificed, no deals with the devil were made (though I'm sure Owen will insist otherwise).
"[I] refuse to believe that they could not handle making their own wafers on a parish level, though perhaps some difficulty in the effort might help sway what many conservative Catholics believe is an overly frequent Communion practice in AmChurch"
Owen insists that the level of production required to supply many large Catholic parishes with bread is available in the kitchen of the local rank and file. Well, if he says so, I guess. He goes on to suggest, wittingly I presume, that it might be all for the best if the last few communicants in line were turned away from the table. Nice.
What I was suggesting by my "Floor Wax" comment is that Owen seems determined to loathe the Catholic Church (here we may insert his standard comment about his many Catholic friends) and as far as he's concerned, "sucks to them". If the Red Sox were the official baseball team of the Vatican, he'd be a Yankee fan. If Catholics drink Coke, he'd be a Pepsi man. If Pope Benedict shouted "Great Taste!", he'd yell "Less Filling!". And no doubt he'd be full of incredibly well articulated justifications, all based in theology and orthopraxy, for each of these opinions.
For the record, let me say in advance that I am not suggesting anything else about baseball, soft drinks or Miller Lite.
7 comments:
First of all please allow me to apologize for the fact that this conversation had to be ended on my blog. The circumstances were as you state. I appreciate your continued participation here.
That the hypothetical anecdotes you use are all drawn from popular culture is telling, to some extent. Though I take your point, and I disagree with it.
On my blog, I have not spoken of the RCC exclusively in negative terms. If you read my archives you will see that I have in the past praised Catholic persons, venerable Catholic traditions (I wrote a post on my love of the Rosary), and various Catholic concepts (my defense of distributivism, my appreciation of the Catholic Church's condemenation of modernism, my defense of the RCC's teaching on subsidiarity and workers, etc.) The late modern RCC has not done much to endear me, but it has not done all evil, and I have made this clear in past writings.
The current RCC take on the Orthodox is just that, current. Read the old Catholic Encyclopedia entries on the Orthodox and related topics for an understanding of Catholic attitudes regarding Orthodox not even a century ago. John Ireland was the norm. Yes, this has changed. It can change again. When there are two ecclesial bodies, both believing that they are the truth, one much, much, much more large than the other, and with a clear definition of where the other stands vis-a-vis them, while the other is much smaller, much more needy in terms of the overall strength of its institutions (from a human point of view), and less defined in its relationship to the bigger, it is only natural that the smaller proceed with much more caution with regard to an issue such as reunion. It is also true that attempts might be made on the part of those of the smaller group to in some fashion locate those problematic boundaries where there are matters of theology and praxis that at least seem divisive. Yes, some take advantage of this for the sake of an agenda of division and nothing more. Others have sincere convictions, and even ask for theological arguments to the contrary of their own, for the sake of seeking further clarity on the matter. Whether one likes it or not, the Mcchurch big box ethos of a great number of RC parishes is one factor which makes the skin of most devout Orthodox, cradle and convert, crawl. If people who claim seriousness about reunion ever really want to get serious, they must address this, and address this theologically, and not just with a lipservice acknowledgement that there is a bit of a problem. Yes Orthodoxy has many problems, even problems of praxis. Fine. But that does not mean that we need or should want your problems, nor, as I have argued before, does it mean that a reunited RCC/EOC will get rid of each others problems, it could be that they mostly end up passing them on to each other, and in all likihood the smaller communion will abosrob more of the bigger's problems than the opposite.
And, of course, I am Orthodox because I believe what the Orthodox Church teaches. I do not believe what Rome teaches. I do not denigrate Rome at every opportunity, but, fundamentally, I believe that any reunion short of Rome becoming Orthodox and Orthodoxy remaining who she is amounts to a false reunion. As such, considering repeated watered down attempts at communion, it might be expected that I offer real on the ground reasons, and not merely theological ones, if I should see such.
Thank you and best regards,
Owen
Owen,
Though I often find your posts infuriating, you have again proved yourself to be a class act.
We're just going to have disagree about mass produced wafers. I guess having been a baker, I am incapable of seeing bread in that romantically spiritual sense. In the end, I don't get your point and I don't think you're going to get mine.
As for "McChurches" and our earlier remarks about a certain Greek Parish, I think that there is a certain commutative property at work... if the Greek Parish is like the giant "Our Lady of the Spirit of Vatican III" parish on the corner, then surely the reverse is true. To me, it seems as if you are saying "The Orthodox Church is free of the Big Box Ethos(tm), except when it isn't and those times don't count because the Catholics made us do it."
I don't claim to see into your soul, but I think that even you suspect that there is at least a kernel of the boutique-ist and obscurantist at work in many of your articles, which is why you take time to deny such inclinations at every turn. I can say this to you because I strongly suspect that such kernels dwell in my heart as well.
A personal story: I shave with a straight razor and shaving brush, which is both more expensive, more time consuming and, if I'm not careful, more painful than using Barbasol and a Bic disposable. When I consider the above and the constant mockery of family members who persist in calling me "Olde Time-y Sean" every time I shave, I often wonder why I persist in what must seem like (and possibly is) an affectation. But at some level, I enjoy taking the time to shave my neck in the way that my father and grandfather must have. Why should this most intimate (and perilous!) act of my daily toilette be turned into something that is just to be gotten through?
Sean,
Most of the time, I enjoy my stalker on my blog. And he has been behaving better lately. Besides, he sure beats that Penny woman...
Sean,
Thank you for your response. Just to clarify. I do not in any way blame the RCC for the fact that the big Greek Church gets labeled by me as "like an RCC" church. I can see how I suggested that, I should not have.
RCC big box churches, as with all big box churches, are a result of the assimilation of crass commercialism, pop psychology, soft pansexualism, and the like into the ethos of a religious community. This assimilation does not derive from the RCC, it derives from mass culture as assimilated into various parishes, dioceses, synods, and, at times, even communions. The RCC is not necessarily big box, it has tolerated big box, tolerated it on a fairly vast scale in this country, to the point that the common (or surface) ethos of Amchurch is frequently identified (even by RCs) as big box, and this is my problem with the RCC with regard to big box Christianity.
Now, has Orthodoxy tolerated it as well? Yes. But as I said the praxis is not so conducive to it as RCC 20th century praxis has been conducive to it. Thus, in a real sense, we Orthodox are far more culpable when our churches attempt to go in that direction.
I say that a big Greek church feels like a RCC church because that is the closest denominator. Obviously it does not feel like Willow Creek or Saddle Ridge or another feel good, live a successful life, Protestant big box church model. For one, ugly people like myself can still walk into Greek and RC big boxes without getting stared at all that much. Plus you do not have to wear a polo shirt. RCC big box churches are the closest thing a Greek big box can feel close to. Does the fact that I use the reference mean that I think that the RCC in AmChurch has a problem? Yes, a big one. And again, we Orthodox have to be very careful not to fall into the bad patterns of American Catholicism. You are much bigger than we. When one looks at areas such as Boston and St. Louis, with huge Catholic populations, one can understand why the Greeks like to keep 1000+ family parishes about to stay respectable, though disagree with the phenomena. But I agree with an old OCA bishop who once told me that he never let a parish get over 350 persons attending on a Sunday. After that he told them to have a group start a new parish. I think this is the best model for both eastern and western forms of praxis (and, of course, both Orthodox and Catholics have both eastern and western forms of praxis), though perhaps exceptions should be made for cathedrals.
On the shaving note, for most of my adult life I have gone to two barbers - first a Lutheran in MN who had in his barber shop the oldest fern in MN which the U of MN botany dept. came each year to study, and who was a former boxing champ. And now a Baptist here in Memphis who has been a barber for 63 years, 58 of them in one place, which he was forced out of with only 10 days notice by a new owner of the building. Both of them are WWII vets. Both of them shave the back of the neck with a straight razor after a haircut. I once heard an anthropologist argue that the fall of America began with unisex haircut joints. Before then men learned to be men and women learned to be women at the places where they had their hair cut, which until the 60's was often a weekly habit. It is a serious concern of mine as to what I will do when I cannot find a WWII era barber to cut my hair. I keep my hair short and have spent many, many, hours of my life with these two men and have learned much from them. Bobby, my current, is in his mid-80s, a widower, smokes a pipe every morning, and his hands shake a bit, though he has never cut me. When working, it as if his hands just remember. We live in a world full of Great Clips commercials. But each of these men's lives is worth far more to me than any corporation. Is it boutique of me to go to Bobby (cheaper, by the way, than Great Clips)? I suppose, in a purely economic sense, and perhaps in a personal one as well. But your question of the boutique and the obscure in my life deserves a post of my own. I will work on that as God and time permits these next few days.
I look forward to that post, Owen!
I'm not sure why I've reacted so viscerally to all this... I really don't have much of a stake in any of the issues at at hand. I've never belonged to Parish of more than 300 people and I've been Eastern Catholic for the whole of my Catholic career so the whole bread thing wasn't an issue either. I know I've taken some cheap shots in the course of this dialogue, and for that I'm sorry.
"It is a serious concern of mine as to what I will do when I cannot find a WWII era barber to cut my hair."
Owen, I think I can smell a career change!
I'm afraid I'm one of the posters who was "censored" by said ochlo for, I presume, uncivil remarks, ( which I have yet to figoure).
I think I was censored essentially because I hit too cose to home. Ochlo has a rather thin skin when it comes to remarks concerning him, though he certainly can be quite insulting to others, ( accusing Rowan Williams of not being Christian, accusing Thomas Merton of "shacking up" with someone, ( no indication of either allegation being true as far as I can tell)).
Even the post giving information on the population size of the typical RC parish, (3,000 comunicants), was censored.
If one wishes to criticize, then one should stand criticism.
I enjoy his blog but somewhat as a preventive measure. There's something essentially correct in essence but incorrect in expression.
Reading him is somewhat homeopathic, the smaller the dose, the more effective he is but in large doses he loses strength.
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